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  • Not that I am trying to make the current team story die, but I have an interesting idea that might make this webboard a little more lively. Searching through the webboards, I came across a topic in EV. Since then I have been watching the Endless War topic, and I believe that it is a very interesting idea for Cythera. Of course Cythera isn't a space game, but we can change some things to make this both interesting and fun for all who partake in it.
    If anyone wishes to sign-up for this, please post in this topic. Also, please tell who you would prefer to be. (Playable characters listed below)


    These are some ideas for the rules and setup. Of course these are not final, so anyone may post in response to them (also in this topic) and expand or remake them.

    City Basics:
    To start, there will be one member to be the leader of each house (Comana, Attis, Nicander, Strymon (sorry for any misspellings, but I haven't really played Cythera in a while.)).
    There will be a judge for each city.
    Each city will also have leading citizens that form a council. Pynx could be an exception here. Instead of leading citizens Pynx will have a Mage Council.
    Cities make x amount of money (based on population points) and can spend y amount to train z number of men. The men form armies. In battles, a fair way to decide upon a victor will have to be formed.
    Cities can go to war with each other. In order to go to war, a two-thirds majority of the council of that city will have to agree that war is acceptable. If a two-thirds majority is not present, the war will not occur. The only exception to this rule will be if a city is declared war on by another. Also, any other bills or laws that a city may pass, will have to pass the council with a two-thirds majority.
    If unclear above, the ruler of the leading house, the judge, and the leading citizens make the council.

    Population points:
    Cities, based on their size, will have population points. Each point will count for a certain amount of revenue. The number of points will also determine the number of leading citizens.
    For Example, Odemia will 3-4 population points. That will be 3-4 leading citizens, and x amount of money in y amount of time. The council in Odemia will consist of the ruling member of Nicander, the judge, and 3-4 citizens. The two-thirds required will be 3 or 4.(Since we won't have 3.3333333 people voting one way.) If the two-thirds majority becomes overwhelmingly annoying to work out, perhaps a simple majority would do, but I don't know.

    Dating System:
    Some type of dating system will have to be decided upon in order to decide the income of the cities.
    For Example, Hmm. I am at a total loss on how to establish a reliable and fair dating system. Anyone with any ideas, please respond. If someone will be busy or out of town during a certain time in this story but do not wish for their city to fall apart during the time they are away, please post something that will inform us all of that. It will also be possible to temporarily place another member that you trust in your place while you are away.

    Going to War:
    Before attacking another city, a formal declaration of war must occur.
    For Example, A post will be placed, after the city has made its vote to go to war, saying something like Catamarca has declared war upon the city of Kosha.
    Battles will have to be setup in some fair way. Please post ideas for this, too.
    Armies that are traveling will take a certain amount of time to get to their destination. There will have to be a set distance between each city.
    For Example, An army going from Codemia to Pynx will take x amount of time in the decided dating system.

    Communication between cities:
    Each city can send runners to another. The runner will arrive at his planned location in about half the time that an army will take to travel there. The runner can talk with the council of that city and be sent back with the other city's answers. The runner will then set off for his home town, taking the same amount of time to get there as he did to leave. This is how treaties, agreements or any such thing will be decided upon. Going to war does not require a runner. It only needs a clear and formal declaration of the war. I am sorry if someone misses a post and doesn't even realize that they are at war, but the council of a town will talk back in forth. This can be an excellent source for information if you miss something.
    Cities can make peace with each other whether they are at war or not. Peace treaties will mean that neither town will attack each other until it is formally broken.
    They can sign an alliance as long as they are not at war. Alliances mean that the cities will get a certain amount of money from each other (5-10%) of the others revenue and they will fight side-by-side in battles. Allianced cities owe each other protection.

    Government within cities:
    The cities council is its government. The leading citizens can vote at elections to replace their judge. Candidates will be decided upon before the election. Mercenaries can also be selected for judge. A judge's term will be a certain amount of time in the dating system.
    Laws can be made. The council can pass certain laws. These laws will require a majority of the council to agree before they are passed. Some possible laws can be, Extra tax (Get more revenue but can only be going for a while before the people get tired of it and begin to move, created a Population Point penalty.), More Guards set (Take a certain amount of Population to become guards.), or Draft (Draft random town members, a Population Point penalty until law is taken out. This will be very handy for towns that are being attacked very soon, but do not have an operational army.). Other law ideas can be posted as an idea on this topic.

    Houses:
    There will be a leading house for each city. Most likely, this will follow the game in what House rules what city. Rulers of houses get a bonust number of votes in the council.
    City leaders can not be replaced.

    Jodges:
    Judges will be responsible for the law and justice. Judges decide what is best themselves, they do not have to take a vote for themselves. In the Council, Judges get a voting number bonus

    Leading Citizens:
    Leading Citizens are not members of a House. They are important citizens that decide the safety of the town. Unlike the Judge, the Citizens must vote on their course of action.

    Councils:
    Councils are in charge of the communication, treaties, and wars. Made up of the three above, the Council must vote on everything.


    Basically:
    Cities will have government and councils. Judges decide the justice. Lead Citizens select the safety. The House is considered the power behind the wheel, in essence. Cities can go to war or make treaties. They can communicate and discuss. It is all a very massive and complex setup, but it may prove interesting. If it seems far to complex, please post and state what might get cut out.

    Other Info:
    There can be Mercenaries, Free-mages, travelers, or normal citizens making a living. People can die if the member that made that character wants him or her to. Another member cannot kill anothers character. New characters can be introduced by those who killed their character. To avoid complexity, it might be best if each member had only one character.
    Also, to avoid complexity, any post should explain where it is.
    For Example, a post in Land King Hall should start, in Land King Hall:
    To post in two different places in one post, tell where you are going after finishing your post on the first location.

    Playable Characters:
    Some Characters should not be playable, such as Alaric. Any further questions on who is unplayable should be asked in this topic.
    Other Characters can be played as. Any mercenary, Free-mage, or normal citizen. Rulers of Houses. Judges. Leading Citizens.
    If several people want to be the same person. There should be a vote on it in this topic by members that will be taking part in this Endless-Story.


    Finally done! Those are basics and ideas. Please post your opinion on them. Post if you will be in this. Post who you want to be. It is possible that a group could try and resettle Abydos, just a thought for later.
    Also, I doubt that I want to be in charge of this. It seems altogether massive and complex. I will have my character in it, but If necessary, I will take charge of the project. If any moderator is willing to, I would gladly let them. Any member willing could also help keep things checked and under control.

    We must also decide upon a date for this story to begin.
    A precise post telling the population points, the revenue, the army, the exact distances, the time set, and who plays who will be posted after it is all decided.


    I sign-up Wizard as a mercenary.

    Also, please don't worry if you don't get the part you want or if you want to be a mercenary for a while and then a judge. If elections are kept, maybe we can all get to be who we want at certain times. If you become a House ruler or leading Citizen, you can resign at any time to let another take the place. Maybe elections can be expanded so that one can get his lost position back, but we shall ponder that.
    Any leftover parts can be made as passive. Used by anyone, but a not-played character. The role could be filled at anytime with an election.

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    The Wizard



  • It sounds really good. if you want when there are wars I can make a small program that will calculate who will be the victor. it may take me a while to perfect it but I cant do it. I would also like to just be a traveler. When I think of a name for him/her I will edit my post and put in the name. I like the idea of it all because its a cross between a game and a story.

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    The mind controls the body, but the heart controls the mind.
    Half Truth



  • I sign Selax up to be a mercenary.

    Half Truth, in the program could mercenaries give bonuses to whatever side they fight on in a battle?

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    Selax



  • I will have to post a thread sometime down the track and find out about all of the weapons and armor, how different people are effected by different things, is basically just going to be a calculator inbuilt into a small simple program, I may also be able to put it on the web when I get my server which shouldn't be too long away. I don't know how long it will take to make the program but I hope that it shouldn't be too hard.

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    The mind controls the body, but the heart controls the mind.
    Half Truth



  • That would be very helpul Half Truth, thank you.

    For the battle, we should add strategy. Your program will calculate the winner and loser of each battle. Then, to add interest for those who love stories and strategy, we make a series of posts about the battle. The posts will cover the whole battle. Hired mercenaries will do certain things, and the men's attack plans will be made up. Who wins in your calculator, will win in this. The loser will lose. It will just add interest to the battles.
    If we do follow the previous idea, then I suggest that there not be single-post battles. Each side will get a say, but they can not change the winner or loser.


    As for revenue, I believe that each city should begin with a certain amount of obolio (I don't know if that is spelled right). Every 24-hours (or whatever set time), each city will generate a certain amount of obolio.
    For example, Odemia will start with 5,000 obolio. The next day it will gain 1,500 to 2,000 more (based on its 3-4 population points.
    A certain amount of revenue can be spent to train armies. There should probably be around four classes of trainable men. The Footman would be the standard, basic soldier, counting as 100 men. The archer would be the next, counting as 200 (because of its ranged attack). Then there would be the knight for 500(because of the upperhand that they have by being on horse back). Lastly, there should be a mage. The mage will be somewhat unique and count for around 800 (they can heal and attack).
    For example, the footman costs 500, the archer would be 800, the knight would be 1,200, and the mage would cost 2-3,000. Hiring 2 footman, 1 archer, 1 knight, and 1 mage, taking 5,000-6,000, would count for 1,700 men in an army. In the next day, more money would be brought in and more could be hired. Mercenaries cost the price that they set, but it can't be set too high, or they won't get hired. If the program can read the effects that certain things would have on people, or the equipping of armor and weapons, mercenaries can use their money to upgrade their equipment. To decide on a bonus from the Mercenary, a level system will have to be established.
    Houses should get a portion of a cities revenue. The exact amount of income and what will go to the leading house can be decided later. Perhaps houses should be able to raise their own armies, and if so, go to war with another house.
    As for the dating system, it could revolve around the income setup.
    For example, Based on the exact distance apart, an army might take three turns of income to get from point A to point B.
    I have also thought over the time it would take to communicate between cities, and I believe that runners should get from city to city in a third to a fourth of the time that an army does.

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    The Wizard



  • To make it easier to calculate the winner in the battle I am going to need to know how strong each of the units that are hired are going to be. All that I need to know about the units them selves is how much HP they have and how much damage they do. I thought to make it easier with the armour all it does is adds HP to the units that it is on. eg. A plate armour may add 100 HP to its unit and a Large helm may add 20 HP and so on. I will also need to know stuff about how much damage each different type of weapon does. I think that its about all I am going to have to know for the moment.

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    The mind controls the body, but the heart controls the mind.
    Half Truth



  • I'd be willing to lend moderator support to whoever manages the project, I'm not ambitious enough to think I can take on "project lead" (though maybe a team of people could do it).

    While this stuff is in design, someone should probably set up a guide explaining how it works, and then add/modify details as they are figured out. Now is an easy time to start as Wizard has provided a general overview.

    I've provided a brief rant with some suggestions:

    Cities :
    One thing to watch out for, and that's the fact that Cythera doesn't have a whole lot of people on the boards - and those that are, not all of them will be continuously active or won't want to join in (just look at the TS). Thus, having 3-4 leading citizens in Odemia seems a bit high (that's 6 for that one city if you count the judges, I think Catamarca is about the same size, Cademia is bigger, and you still have Pnyx and Kosha, not to mention mercenaries and everybody - you're talking 30+ people). Also, it doesn't seem too many people want to be a leading citizen, but perhaps mercenaries can move in and become citizens or something (say if they linger in a town for long enough they gain that ability). So, my recommendation is to start small - you can always "expand" (population growth) over time if more people join in. The alternative is to allow multiple characters per person, but that becomes really difficult, and its tough not having one's characters not secretly coordinate strategies in the subconscious realm.

    For votes, since most towns will be small in the beginning, I think the house leader should get 2 votes, a "leading citizen" 1 vote, and the judge 1.5 votes (to prevent any ties, regardless of the population in the city).

    I guess, a good number for starting population would be:
    Odemia: 2 leading citizens (total pop: 4)
    Catamarca: 2 (4)
    Cademia: 3 (5) (maybe more, depends on how many people we have)
    Kosha: 1 (3)
    Pnyx: 2? (4?) <- instead of citizens, I think the "free mages" or magi of Pnyx should be on the council
    Meaning we'd need 20 characters (not counting mercs) to fill the cities alone. Another solution would be to make either Cademia or Pnyx (or Kosha) a non-playable city if we're still short on people.

    Also, perhaps each city should have a minor advantage - based on stuff from the game. If I recall correctly, Odemia has a wall (so perhaps a defense bonus), Cademia is large (draft bonus, plenty of beggers?), Pnyx should get some kind of magic (or +mage) bonus...and the rest I don't know. Maybe.

    Finally, I think most of us are going to wish to be mercenaries - which leaves the cities empty. Perhaps we should force people to choose a resident city to start off with, and then as more people come, characters can "leave" the town and go off and do stuff. Or maybe the mercenaries are citizens of their "home" town, and can vote on stuff, but also wander around helping others - though helping enemies of the "home" town is strongly frowned upon and might result in a forced relocation. That would help solve the player problem - people can manage cities and join in battles with other towns (or not, if the city legislature votes against it).

    Time system:
    I think there are two different ideas we could do for a system. One would be a diplomacy style turn-based thing, in which each turn is...say...an hour (or more? a quarter of a day?) and all players input what they do for each turn. After every player has said what they'll do, the turn is resolved (battles fought, pieces moved, descriptions and story posts made - latter can be done while next turn's orders are being issued).

    The other is to have a set number of hours in the real world equal one hour in the game world; perhaps a ratio of 2-12 hours here would be one hour there. This would be better for large numbers of players (not having to wait for 50 people to log on and post moves), but it requires a good balance: some people can't be online all the time, while if you extend the range too long (say 48 hours for one hour) then the game goes way too slow and nothing may happen for weeks. I think something like six hours would be good, depending on how many game hours it takes to travel from one place to another - that way there are four chances in a day to react to something, and its reasonable to assume that most people won't make all four (so some will always be sleeping for at least one decisive period, balancing it out for others). Then again, if people only stop by once or twice a day, perhaps 12 hours would be better.

    Battles and items:
    I think for deciding what weapons and armor do, why not take the starcraft system? Damage taken from a unit = damage weapon deals - defending units armor value. (so something with an "armor" of 10 would take 5 damage from a 15 damage weapon) We could add another factor "unit's base damage" (or what they could deal with their bare hands). So a footman that can punch for five equipped with a weapon that does 15 could deal 20. A variation is a D &D-like; system, where you have your base damage + a range of damage that something could deal. So a footman with a longsword would deal 5 base damage + longsword damage (say 1d8 + 3) - armor of enemy. I don't think we should include the "to hit" roll that's also in D&D; at this time, because that might get too complicated. (having to roll to see if you hit vs their armor, and if you do then you roll the damage)

    Someone could make a chart of weapons and how much damage they deal, and a chart of armor and how much "armor" they provide. The hired army units would all be equipped with a certain type of weapon (say, all swordsmen get the iron long sword and iron plating) rather than custom configurations so it doesn't get too complex.

    Player "heros":
    I guess we could use a simple three-stat model for players, sort of like in warcraft: Strength, Agility, Intelligence. Each strength point would raise the player's max HP (25?), each Intelligence raises their max mana by a set amount (15?), and each agility their speed (and perhaps every 3 or so their "natural" armor - they learn to evade nasty hits better, or at least make them less damaging). Each character would pick their primary statistic at the beginning (unchangable), and that would determine what they gain when they level up. Those that value strength get less intelligence, and vice versa (Agility being the "average" middle ground) Each point in the primary attribute would also raise a character's base damage. If we go with this model, I'm thinking that each level, the stats of a character would raise by a set amount (rounding down for calculating, though the .5 would still be there - just "invisible")...if their main attribute was strength it'd be something like +3S, 1.5A, 1I, main attribute intelligence would be the opposite +3I, +1.5A, +1S, and agility +2.5A, +1.5S, +1.5I.

    Unlike normal army units blacksmiths, for a (hefty?) price, could potentially "upgrade" player weapons with magical enchantments or whatever (say +1 damage for 100 obols, depends on the pricing of everything else). Perhaps even get magical enchantments (weapon deals fire/splash damage) or something.

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    "Its all fun and games until a rampaging robot destroys half of your city."



  • Those are excellent suggestions, Avatara. Thank you for giving your input. I have some ideas to expand these and maybe merge some.
    I do agree that the number would definately be too high to fill with Cythera's current amount of members. Therefore, I believe that Land King Hall will not be a playable city. It should be a passive location that can be in the story, but no one will be in charge of it. Also, if there are just not enough members that join, some mercenaries could double as leaders of towns. I don't quite know if that's what will do, but it might be the only way to ensure that a city has at least a little human control.
    Also, I like your bonus idea. I had toyed with this a little, and I believe that bonuses should be similar to the following:
    *Catamarca - A 2-population point revenue bonus, because it is by the sea (making it virtually a tourist attraction).
    *Cademia - Because of the enormous number of beggars, there should be a poverty penalty (perhaps taking the revenue of one population point, though the point can be used in a draft). Perhaps the draft should be able to call up 10% more from each population point than other cities. House Attis, running an Iron Mine, should give a 1-population point revenue bonus, evening out the poverty penalty.
    *Kosha - Kosha might get a small revenue bonus because most of its people are rich. Mabye, the Extra Tax law could gain 20% more than other towns can receive.
    *Odemia - Being heavily-fortified, Odemia will get a 20% defense bonus. Also, Calling upon extra guards should produce around 10% more than the usual. Perhaps even a small draft bonus (maybe 5%) is called for here.
    *Pynx - Being like a gaint, metal house, Pynx will gain a 10% defense bonus. Also, the mages should give a bonus as well, perhaps 15%. Since Pynx is virtually the Mage-Headquarters, Pynx can hire mages for its army at a slightly reduced price.
    As for the Time System, that seems to be about the hardest part to work out. Because, as you mentioned, if 1 hour is 6 for us, there will be a period where everyone is sleeping. Once again as you mentioned, not everyone can be online so often. Perhaps a system other than hourly can be established. I know that you gave that idea for a turn system, but the posts would still go slowly. The time will take a long time to work out, but maybe a daily system would be better. Say that instead of setting it hourly, one day is one day, or maybe two days is one. If an army from Cademia, took 2 days to reach Pynx, That would be 2-4 days to initiate a draft or to communicate with the other city. The Runner would get from Plynx to Cademia in about half a day or a little more. That would give plenty of time to do things, and hopefully the boards wouldn't be empty for weeks.
    For the battles and items, I am a little confused by Half Truth's last post. Are you talking about adding hit points and damage to Mercenaries or ordinary men? It would grow very complex and lengthy to set up a Hit Point system for men. When I was discussing 1 footman equalling 100 soldiers, I was referring to a system similar to Risk. 1 soldier is 1 army. 1 Horseman is 5 armies, and a cannon is 10. With that in mind, a footman is 100 men. An archer is 200. A knight, 500, and a mage, 800. Mercenaries can add bonuses in whatever way you program it. I was just trying to set up a simple army system. If you had 1 of each unit, you would have an army of 1,600 men. I am not well-versed in Starcraft, and I don't play it often. Therefore, I would not be very aware of its systems, but I just fear, while it is a very good and interesting idea, that it may become very hard to determine the winner of a battle. I'll leave that for you to decide, though.
    I do know Warcraft, however, but once again I fear that deciding the victor a battle would grow complicated. A playable hero would be fun, but all of the requirements of keeping a level and keeping track of the Strength, Agility, and Intelligence would be very demanding. Maybe mercenaries could serve as Heroes. I do agree that there should be a blacksmith in each town. The blacksmith should not be playable and should sell weapons and armor at set prices. Perhaps different blacksmiths could sell different things, as in the game. Either way each item should have a certain value in damage and hit points. I think that Mercenaries should use the equipment that they are supposed to have, according to character info, but they could buy and item and it would increase their damage and hit points. They will keep their items, but for the purpose of the story, they should increase. Mercenaries can get money from governments. They are hired at first for a certain price and then they take a certain amount of money each time the city makes income from then on until they are fired or quit.
    For example, If Wizard is hired by Odemia for 4,000 and takes 350 from then on, he will eventually get the money to buy new equipment. If he buys a large shield, a breastplate, and a long sword, he will still use his staff and cloak, but his Hit point and damage will go up. If he has 40 points of damage and 1,200 hit points after upgrade, he will count for a certain number of men. Say, 80 men for the damage and 2,400 for the HP. He will then add 2,480 men to the total army count. That seems about the simplest way to set it up. Although, a chart telling the hit points and damage will need to be made.

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    The Wizard



  • In the Endless War topic on the EV web board, the time system is 24 hours in real time equals 24 hours in the story. I think that would be a good system to use for a time system. Since Lindus leads Pnyx, I don't think that there should be a judge in Pnyx. Also, in the Endless War, they wanted to get a lot members so that the topic would not die, but I do not think that we can do that.

    I sign my mercenary (Selax) up to be a citizen of Pnyx and not a member of any house.

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    Selax



  • Now I haven't read all the rules, only a few, but they are interesting. I could possibly get into it once I return to school in a week and a half (where I can check my email, hence the boards, with more regularity), and will probably read the rules bit by bit until then, if they are definately decided on.

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    "I don't need a plan, just a goal. The rest will follow on its own"
    - MtG, "Temper"
    The One And Only:
    (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/webboard/Forum5/HTML/000506.html")~Theo Nean Donly~(/url)



  • Quote

    Originally posted by Selax:
    **In the Endless War topic on the EV web board, the time system is 24 hours in real time equals 24 hours in the story. I think that would be a good system to use for a time system.
    **

    In EV though, it takes a day to jump from system to system, where in Cythera you can walk from one town to another in hours - that's not much reaction time if war is declared. I suppose it would work if we made it take days to walk between town.

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    "Its all fun and games until a rampaging robot destroys half of your city."



  • hey why dont we have only one person ruleing a town. :)

    oh i sighn up my char satori and her shade Surza as leaders of the Disappearing Stronghold
    if im alowed

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    we are born for darker purpose than that of mere existence,there will come a time when the stygian night never ends,where dead stars will spread before us like islands that slumber on the ocean, and when the beings that hid like shadows will feed on us forever



  • Actually, if you look at the EV board, they only have two "factions". So, to simplify the number of people needed, why not make it Cademia vs Pnyx? There were some East-West tensions in the game. Cademia could get a bonus to normal army units (or population/cash or something), and Pnyx would have a magical-type bonus.

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    Its all fun and games...until an ugly lock picture ruins everything! Vote to ban lock pictures!



  • Quotes:
    quote:


    Originally posted by Pippin 3:
    hey why dont we have only one person ruleing a town.

    oh i sighn up my char satori and her shade Surza as leaders of the Disappearing Stronghold if im alowed


    That is a good idea. Avatara said that we should start small and expand. Well, how about each city is ruled by a Judge and the ruler of the House that is in charge in that certain city. Leading Citizens can come later, if necessary. However, there will still be population points to determine the revenue, I think.

    As for the other part, I looked in Character Info and could not find anything on your characters. Please post some information on them just so others in the story have an idea of what these characters are. As for the rest, I feel that it should be perfectly legal to be in charge of a Stronghold. If you will notice in the chart above, I labeled your characters as guardians of the Stronghold. The reason for this is that the Disappearing Stronghold is the personal home of Tavara. Tavara will definitely be a non-playable role. Therefore, I think that Satori and Surza can be the Guardians. Will you be okay with that? Your characters can probably choose to deploy forces or set up the law for the Stronghold. If we place Tavara in the story, things might be different but I don’t know. Does anyone want to have Tavara in this? Even if not now, we can always later. Basically, Pippin 3, I believe that you are allowed to be in charge of the stronghold. Will your characters be on the side of evil or good?

    quote:


    Actually, if you look at the EV board, they only have two "factions". So, to simplify the number of people needed, why not make it Cademia vs Pnyx? There were some East-West tensions in the game. Cademia could get a bonus to normal army units (or population/cash or something), and Pnyx would have a magical-type bonus.


    Interesting. However, EV is centered around those two factions, and always has been (Good and Bad being enemies), because that is the way that the game is designed. Cythera, though similar at certain points, is not the same. True, it does seem that most Ambrosia games are good vs. evil. I feel that something will be taken away from the story if we drop everything but Pynx and Cademia. Maybe Cademia and Pynx could be the main cities, and the others would be less significant, but still there. Pynx and Cademia could get bonuses, but the other cities will still be present during it all. Perhaps there should be several rulers for Pynx and Cademia and just one or two (the ruling member of the house and the Judge) for the others.
    If not based on cities, this story could revolve around the Houses. That is the closest that I can think of to being similar to EV in factions. I still think that this would be more open if it were the full game. EV may have two main groups, but the whole galaxy is still included. Cythera is a war between the houses, Comana being bad, but that doesn’t change the fact that other cities exist. I think that we should only do this if we have to. I would prefer to leave cities in the center of it all, though the Houses may be behind what goes on in the city.
    The main point in this story is still undecided. Maybe Houses can be the core of it, and cities could be a mere part of it. Perhaps, there could be a main bad guy. Sometimes, the cities and Houses will fight wars. Sometimes, they will have alliances to fight a common foe. Perhaps we should develop a BAD GUY that can be used in this story and other team stories. As I recall, someone did mention the lack of a constant enemy.

    Cities Defeat and Expansion:
    In the EV story, systems can be taken over and controlled. This risks the elimination of one player or more. To avoid this, I feel that cities should not be able to be taken over. If the city loses its battle and is taken over, a heavy tax will be charged it for quite a while. Eventually, the tax will wear off and the city can begin to grow. Maybe the city that defeated the other could even put its say in the votes of the conquered city’s council.
    For example, Odemia has initiated its draft because an army from Catamarca is coming. If Catamarca loses, Odemia has defeated its army and is now completely free to send an army of its own at Catamarca. If Odemia loses, then Catamarca takes power over Odemia for a short time. A 50% profit tax is charged and the Catamarca officials can influence the decisions made by Odemia’s Council. Within a few weeks, Odemia is free and has began to prepare its army and remake its profits.
    Cities should also be able to expand. Small territories outside of the town should be available for the taking. If that area is already controlled by another city, they must go to war and fight for it. Any territory can be taken over except for the main cities. So some powerful cities, like Cademia may own a very large number of Territories, but Pynx could go to war and fight for some. Territories will trade hands, but cities cannot. Territories offer an extra population point per one. Each one is ruled by the Judge that leads the city that controls it.
    For example, Kosha has expanded its territory largely by taking many adjacent squares. Kosha’s Judge now not only rules Kosha, but several territories as well. Kosha profits from one extra population provided by each territory. Cademia has gone to war. Taking many of Kosha’s proud territories, Cademia now gets both the extra profit and the task of ruling (which its Judge will undertake).

    Hiring Mercenaries:
    We believe that there should be some place where mercenaries can be hired from. Mercenaries can come to a city and ask for a job. Cities can otherwise go to them and hire them.

    Exact Distances:
    Precise distances between towns will be set. Along with that, will be the opening territories of each city.

    Weapons and Armor:
    I had suggested that Mercenaries merely add a certain number of men depending on their Hit Points and Damage (double both and add with total of men, increasing odds for the side that they fight on). I don’t think that normal men should be able to upgrade their equipment. Though, perhaps we can set up a level system for the soldiers.

    An attempt to explain what ideas are most likely going to be kept or not:
    At the top of the list, is the concern of too few members to fill the required amount. Leading Citizens will be cut out for now.
    Cademia and Pynx will be the main towns. The others will still be in the story and have rulers, but not as important.
    Elections will most likely be eliminated.
    Battles will be decided by Half Truth’s program. Footman, Archers, Knights, and Mages can be purchased to increase the army size. See previous posts for more info on this.
    Mercenaries can get jobs at the city or at the location where mercenaries can be hired from.
    Pynx will not have a Judge. It will have a Mage council of some amount of members.
    Cademia will be ruled by House Comana, House Attis, and the Judge.
    Other towns will be ruled by the House and the Judge.
    Cities cannot be taken over. Only a tax can be charged. Council’s decisions may also be affected.
    Cities can expand their territory. Territories can be taken over and taken back. They will trade hands.
    Population points will determine a cities revenue.
    No dating system has really been established.
    City officials can make certain laws.
    There is really nothing sure yet. I will, in the future, post a map that shows what the starting territories will most likely be (if territories are kept). The map will also show the possible locations for the Mercenary hiring camp. Perhaps it will even tell precise distances. Also in the future, I will post an completely accurate chart that will tell the costs of things too. A dating system shall also be set up. That post should also tell the exact amount that each city will start and how much it will make. It may even tell the starting date, if everything is decided upon by that time.


    There is a lot that we have left to decide about. This post goes together with my others to form a slight understanding of some rules. I will replace some ideas in new posts as I go on.
    Also, how do you quote someone? I just typed it out by hand, but I don’t think that is the usual way.

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    The Wizard



  • Didn't see your reply this morning. I'll quote some stuff using the italics rather than quote tags. (by the way, on the "posting reply" page, click on the link to the left that says "UBB Code is ON" to learn some useful tags you can use)

    Also, I like your bonus idea. I had toyed with this a little, and I believe that bonuses should be similar to the following:
    *Cademia - Because of the enormous number of beggars, there should be a poverty penalty (perhaps taking the revenue of one population point, though the point can be used in a draft). Perhaps the draft should be able to call up 10% more from each population point than other cities. House Attis, running an Iron Mine, should give a 1-population point revenue bonus, evening out the poverty penalty.
    On the contrary, the leaders don't seem to care about the beggars - they can simply be drafted into the army and forced into labor. The large marketplace should provide bonus revenue as well.

    Rather than base everything on cities, you might as well make the houses the main focus. Like, each house earns a specific income, controls certain territory (may be forced to move from one city to another, could conquer multiple cities) Mercenaries could pledge their allegiance to whatever house hires them, regardless if they're stirring up trouble in Cademia or stealing magical secrets in Pnyx or whatever. Houses are your governments. The city bonuses should be kept (maybe refined a bit to balance it out, but balancing should come after the main logistics: ie, the formulas for drafting and revenue and such), to help each "house" decide where they want to focus their control, and which cities they should try to take from others to increase their standing.

    *Pynx - Being like a gaint, metal house, Pynx will gain a 10% defense bonus. Also, the mages should give a bonus as well, perhaps 15%. Since Pynx is virtually the Mage-Headquarters, Pynx can hire mages for its army at a slightly reduced price.
    I personally feel this is a bit excessive. Just give (and maybe buff up) Pnyx a magic bonus - which will help significantly, let the fortified town of Odemia be the only one with a defense bonus (makes it more valuable).

    The time will take a long time to work out, but maybe a daily system would be better. Say that instead of setting it hourly, one day is one day, or maybe two days is one. If an army from Cademia, took 2 days to reach Pynx (sic), That would be 2-4 days to initiate a draft or to communicate with the other city. The Runner would get from Plynx (sic) to Cademia in about half a day or a little more. That would give plenty of time to do things, and hopefully the boards wouldn't be empty for weeks.
    I guess the day:day system would work, but the distances still seem short. If a runner takes half a day to reach a town, you still have the issue that the house ruling that town won't be online in the half day before the army arrives. Pnyx-Cademia (and Cademia-Kosha) should also take the longest amount of time, to keep the proportions of Cythera somewhat in perspective.

    For the battles and items, I am a little confused by Half Truth's last post. Are you talking about adding hit points and damage to Mercenaries or ordinary men? It would grow very complex and lengthy to set up a Hit Point system for men. When I was discussing 1 footman equalling 100 soldiers, I was referring to a system similar to Risk. 1 soldier is 1 army. 1 Horseman is 5 armies, and a cannon is 10. With that in mind, a footman is 100 men. An archer is 200. A knight, 500, and a mage, 800. Mercenaries can add bonuses in whatever way you program it. I was just trying to set up a simple army system. If you had 1 of each unit, you would have an army of 1,600 men. I am not well-versed in Starcraft, and I don't play it often. Therefore, I would not be very aware of its systems, but I just fear, while it is a very good and interesting idea, that it may become very hard to determine the winner of a battle. I'll leave that for you to decide, though.
    I'm confused by your post. If you had one footman be one footman (with a set HP and a range of damage), battles could be resolved by inflicting damage at the same time from one side vs another. If you choose to go the risk route where you have 100 men being one footman and you try to roll dice to tick off 1/2 people at a time (if you're going for 100 people at a time, why not just have one footman be one footman?), that's a heck of a lot of rolls to resolve a conflict, even before mages are thrown in. Not to mention wondering what role magic would play. Perhaps you could try a Heros of Might and Magic approach, or use the HP/damage scheme before.

    I agree that normal hired soldiers should have set equipment, and maybe the possibility to upgrade it (but it has to be done for all soldiers of that type, both present and hired in the future for that city/house)

    A playable hero would be fun, but all of the requirements of keeping a level and keeping track of the Strength, Agility, and Intelligence would be very demanding. Maybe mercenaries could serve as Heroes.
    I was thinking each player would keep track of their character's stats - each character having the stat system I described. Its not that demanding, only three stats + hp, mana, damage. Also, any equipment and spells. Keeping track of equipment and spells known is far tougher than remembering "my level 5 hero has 24 strength", in my opinion. Especially since the lists for equipment/spells can grow quite long.

    The stats idea also provides your chart for HP. If we make 1 strength point be 25 HP, then multiply a character's strength by 25, and add any bonus HP given by items. Same with intelligence (15 MP). Of course, those numbers are just a suggestion, but they seem to work well in warcraft.

    I think that Mercenaries should use the equipment that they are supposed to have, according to character info
    I disagree. Some players (myself included) have high-level characters they'd like to use with some equipment that would just make it unfair when fighting low-level characters. I think the character details should remain the same (personality, background, etc.), but everyone starts at a set level (1? 5?), a set amount of gold (not counting any hiring fees or income), and buys their own equipment for the sake of this war thing.

    They are hired at first for a certain price and then they take a certain amount of money each time the city makes income from then on until they are fired or quit.
    Perhaps mercenaries should have a weekly upkeep. You hire someone expecting to pay them 800 obols a week, or whatever. Pay periods should probably be weekly, bi-weekly, or two set days a week (Wednesday and Saturday webboard time?).

    I'll quote your next post separately.

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    Its all fun and games...until an ugly lock picture ruins everything! Vote to ban lock pictures!



  • Quotes are all from Wizard.

    That is a good idea. Avatara said that we should start small and expand. Well, how about each city is ruled by a Judge and the ruler of the House that is in charge in that certain city. Leading Citizens can come later, if necessary. However, there will still be population points to determine the revenue, I think.
    I think the population points should be modified to reflect the population of each city (not necessarily the exact values from the game, but approximate proportions) rather than "significant people". Revenue would be easier to determine then, in my opinion. Also, see my idea on basing the game around the houses rather than cities.

    As for the other part, I looked in Character Info and could not find anything on your characters. Please post some information on them just so others in the story have an idea of what these characters are.
    I apologize, what little I have for my character is most likely out of date. I got tired of hunting down my post and editing it as time went on, so I linked to a website where I had much more detailed info. Unfortunately, my webhost kinda died last year, and when it went down, so did my character's info.

    As for the rest, I feel that it should be perfectly legal to be in charge of a Stronghold.
    I think this would work better if a "house" could decide to take a stronghold. Of course, if a NPC controls it already (like Tavara, in one case), then the house would have to battle it out with the residing player.

    If not based on cities, this story could revolve around the Houses. That is the closest that I can think of to being similar to EV in factions. I still think that this would be more open if it were the full game. EV may have two main groups, but the whole galaxy is still included. Cythera is a war between the houses, Comana being bad, but that doesn’t change the fact that other houses exist.
    Oops, didn't see this part. Anyway, I think we agree on this, make the houses the "governments" and focus everything around them.

    (edit) Actually, Pallas brought up an alternative, resulting in a more diplomatic game (than just army-bashing). Each city would be ruled by a council made up of the houses that had influence in that city, and houses would rival one another to become the dominant power across Cythera. (they'd still have their own private armies and stuff, and would sap revenue from their buildings) I'll see if he can post his idea, he'll explain it better than I can. (/Edit)

    The main point in this story is still undecided. Maybe Houses can be the core of it, and cities could be a mere part of it. Perhaps, there could be a main bad guy. Sometimes, the cities and Houses will fight wars. Sometimes, they will have alliances to fight a common foe. Perhaps we should develop a BAD GUY that can be used in this story and other team stories. As I recall, someone did mention the lack of a constant enemy.
    Do we need a story at this point? It could be sort of like civilization, build up each rival house's power, and then after the story/war/thingy gets going, throw in events that make it more of a storylike scenario.

    Cities Defeat and Expansion:
    In the EV story, systems can be taken over and controlled. This risks the elimination of one player or more. To avoid this, I feel that cities should not be able to be taken over. If the city loses its battle and is taken over, a heavy tax will be charged it for quite a while. Eventually, the tax will wear off and the city can begin to grow. Maybe the city that defeated the other could even put its say in the votes of the conquered city’s council.

    I disagree on this point. If we focus on the houses then cities should be conquered and controlled. If a house loses all of its men (and sources of revenue) and cities, and the leader is captured - the victorious house should be able to keep what they capture, including perhaps the leader. (stick 'em in a prison, try to force them to join your side, perhaps let them go on ruling somewhere but extract a weekly tribute of a certain % of their income - sort of like a vassal/lord relationship)
    If a house takes a city owned by another house, the other house could always counterattack (assuming they have forces elsewhere - maybe even travelling in the woods) and attempt to retake the city, or go into exile, build up their strength, and take another city. To counter the possibility of a house getting no revenue from having no cities, and thus being screwed within a few cityless weeks, perhaps "pillaging" could be an option. Sort of like pirates, the exiled members of the house could take what they need to survive and get revenge.

    Cities should also be able to expand. Small territories outside of the town should be available for the taking. If that area is already controlled by another city, they must go to war and fight for it. Any territory can be taken over except for the main cities. So some powerful cities, like Cademia may own a very large number of Territories, but Pynx could go to war and fight for some. Territories will trade hands, but cities cannot. Territories offer an extra population point per one. Each one is ruled by the Judge that leads the city that controls it.
    Might need a territory map of the island divided up, so its easy to tell who owns what. Houses can easily gain multiple cities (and perhaps set up small garrisons or fortresses in the woods, but cities could grow too - with a certain birthrate, and become more profitable to own.

    Hiring Mercenaries:
    We believe that there should be some place where mercenaries can be hired from. Mercenaries can come to a city and ask for a job. Cities can otherwise go to them and hire them.

    Like the blacksmith, perhaps a tavern to hire mercenaries as they visit particular towns?

    Weapons and Armor:
    I had suggested that Mercenaries merely add a certain number of men depending on their Hit Points and Damage (double both and add with total of men, increasing odds for the side that they fight on). I don’t think that normal men should be able to upgrade their equipment. Though, perhaps we can set up a level system for the soldiers.

    I don't really understand your battle system at all, I'm sorry. (and above, in your last post, starcraft's battle system is like the earlier warcrafts - 1 and 2, if that helps you see what i meant)

    Overview:
    Cademia and Pynx will be the main towns. The others will still be in the story and have rulers, but not as important.

    Might not be necessary if it becomes house-based, rather than city-based.

    Elections will most likely be eliminated.
    ...except perhaps in cities that are occupied by multiple houses at first (Cademia?), or perhaps coalitions of houses.

    Cademia will be ruled by House Comana, House Attis, and the Judge.
    Other towns will be ruled by the House and the Judge.

    If houses become the dominant force, this might have to be worked out. Perhaps the Judge is on the payroll of the occupying house, and helps keep the order in the city (or if its player-controlled and they don't like the house dominating them, they could secretly work to rebel against the house that owns them, to split off and become independent or join someone else)

    Also, how do you quote someone? I just typed it out by hand, but I don’t think that is the usual way.
    Its <Quote> and </Quote>, with () instead of <>. Also, use the "reply" button above a post to work with that post's content. I personally find that italics is easier to type out if you're breaking quotes into many pieces than it is to type <Quote><b> and the closing tags for each.

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    Its all fun and games...until an ugly lock picture ruins everything! Vote to ban lock pictures!

    (This message has been edited by Avatara (edited 08-14-2004).)

    (This message has been edited by Avatara (edited 08-14-2004).)



  • Feel free to join in working out ideas for Pallas' diplomacy concept on (url="http://"http://www.ircle.com")IRC(/url): irc.ambrosia.net, channel #cythera - its not "the" set idea for this war-thing yet, but we're talking over the major issues and balancing out the houses in order to have a feasible proposal that will be suggested here. (and open for comments/criticism) I've edited this over time as problems and ideas get resolved, edits into the middle of the post are placed in bold.

    This idea works best with one player in charge of each house. Then, the head of that house may decide on how their house is to be run (if they want other players in their house, how the house's revenue should be divided between the character and the house, etc.) Since most of you want to be mercenaries, that shouldn't be a problem.

    Essentially its this: in the game, each house is present in various cities, and in some they have more influence than others. So, each house would be trying to dominate a "council" in various cities in an attempt to increase their power and standing. The council will be made up of 9 people, some players and others NPCs whose votes can be bought. In the game, many houses have a town where their influence is "higher" than others, so they get an extra vote in those towns. A rough idea of the councils is seen below (judges aren't on the council yet, no idea on what role they'd play, but they're included for reference). Also, Kosha is smaller, so there are only 7 people on the council, with 5 NPCs.

    Odemia
    Judge: Sacas
    2 - Nicander (Philinus, Ascalon)
    1 - Atussa (Milcom)
    1 - Dodona (Crito)
    5 - NPC

    Catamarca
    Judge: Metopes
    2 - Strymon (Propontis, Mantinea)
    1 - Comana (Darius)
    1 - Atussa (Sardis)
    1 - Dodona (Parium)
    4 - NPC

    Cademia
    Judge: Berossus
    2 - Attis (Malis, Thuria)
    1 - Comana (Naxos)
    1 - Nicander (Opheltius)
    1 - Strymon (Halos)
    1 - Dodona (Dares)
    1 - Atussa
    2 - NPC

    Kosha (Council of 7)
    Judge: Itanos (unimportant)
    2 - Comana (Myus, Canachus)
    1 - Dodona (Ariethous)
    4 - NPC

    If a house is doing things that the other houses don't like, they can attempt to "vote out" the target house, which would (if successful) kick the target house off of the council. To do so, 7 of 9 votes (5 of 7 in Kosha) are required, making it difficult - but still possible.

    Pnyx will be setup somewhat differently, it looks like it'll end up being a "neutral haven", sort of like Land King Hall - since its so different, and its unlikely mages can be bribed. Pnyx can assist in being a center of learning, and used by anyone for any plot-related events (if we choose to have them) that could arise in the future. The mages are supposed to be impartial anyway, and loyal only to Alaric.

    Each house will gain revenue from somewhere (presumably businesses/guilds/territory they own) - see below. Mercenaries can be bribed/hired to assist them in their endeavors, hired by house characters wherever the mercenaries determine they are looking for employment.

    **Buying an NPC's vote becomes more expensive with each successive NPC, making completely dominating a vote pretty expensive. The cost of the first NPC bribe is at least 1x, the second 2x, the third 3*x, and so on - where X is a number to be determined later. The player also chooses which NPC(s) they are attempting to bribe in their story post. There is a question though, on how public bids should be. If bidding is done secretly multiple players may attempt to bribe the same NPC without knowing it, but the NPC will only go with the highest bidder. Secret bids will also probably have be resolved by the "gamemaster", or some such thing. This makes for a higher degree of strategy and political maneuvering among houses, but its not that great from a storytelling perspective (if you post the details of your bid, it won't exactly be secret). Posting it storywise could be less stressful for the GM, and its possible players might "hear" of other bids through rumors.

    NPCs that are not bought out for a vote will vote yes or no randomly (with something like a 50% chance for simple "majority rules" decisions) - so in some cases it may or may not be profitable to buy out all of the NPCs. For more "critical" decisions (like voting out a house or on going to war: the decisions that require 6 or 7 votes to pass), the probability for a "yes" will be something like 25% and a "no" 75% (since NPCs usually won't want to go to war or risk needless retribution by voting them out) to make those decisions reasonably harder to achieve.**

    Battle would be different than previously described. Houses could essentially fight with one another for dominance on three levels (listed in order of likely occurance):
    1. Maneuvering by buying out votes on the council
    2. Destruction of individual house assets
    3. Inter-city warfare

    The first is simple, buying NPC votes and negotiating with rival houses to pass whatever motion is desired (forcing all houses to be blue, kicking house xxxx out, whatever).

    The second requires "assets", "ruffians", and "guards". Assets are the house's holdings in that city (presumably used to make money, for example). Houses hire guards to protect those assets. If a rival house wants to inflict pain and misery, they could hire "ruffians" to burn down and/or pillage their rival's assets in that city, weakening their position and ability to further influence the council (money makes the world go round).

    The third option requires inducing war. A vote of 6 out of 9 (5 of 7 in Kosha) is required to declare war. Technically, the ruling house could buy out all the NPCs and send their city to war, but they also have the most to lose if it goes badly. Cities would hire their own garrison of soldiers (which houses could help with, since if a city they're in falls it could be bad for them - explained later). If a house decides they don't like the council composition in one city, they could "persuade" (through any of the three means) their city (or a city) council to declare war or the target city. If the war-declaring city wins and the target city is overrun, the council of the victorious city(ies) would then decide the new council composition of the defeated city. However, the number of NPCs cannot be diminished, so if there were 4 NPCs to start with, then there has to be at least 4 in the new council. (if its too much of an issue with houses gaining ground in Kosha, the council can always be bumped up to 9 people) If multiple cities gang up and emerge victorious, then the number of player slots to be filled (number of council votes - minimum number of NPCs) are divided equally among the victorious cities to determine, and new NPCs will fill up the remainder. So, if two cities beat up a third city, and third city had 4 of its 9 council members NPCs, each victorious city will have two slots to vote on who gets, and a NPC will be added to fill up the remainder (bringing the number of NPCs to 5 out of 9). If three cities were victorious, two NPCs would be added to fill up the remainder, bringing the total to 6 NPCs. Thus, attacking with allies is easier (more soldiers on your side), but less profitable.

    To lower the number of NPCs, a "voting off" similar to kicking a major house out could be performed. A house (even one not on the city) can permanently (until someone votes them off or conquers the city) acquire an NPC's votes by winning 7 out of the 9 council votes (5 of 7 in Kosha) in favor of their proposal. So, if house Comana wants another voting slot in Cademia, they would have to bribe enough people to get the 7 votes needed to change an NPC's vote into an extra vote for house Comana. Of course, this can be disadvantagous if overused - bribing so many people costs a lot of cash, and gaining enough influence to lower a city to something like 2 NPC votes may cause the other houses to attack that city (which then they could reorganize to their favor and only have to deal with 2 NPCs).

    Economics :
    Revenue can be gained for each house in two ways: one is a share of a city's revenue, the other is from various assets (buildings in a city, iron assets, magical item assets and the like).

    Each City generates a certain amount of revenue (after a set time) based on its population (which may vary). The revenue is divided up among the 9 voters and the judge (each "vote" and judge gets 10%). Kosha is divided among the 7 voters and the judge (each person gets 12.5%). The judge's and NPC's % go to the city's treasury where it can be used for city improvements (expanding city territory/value, enhancing stuff - maybe a better blacksmith?, and more importantly, buying soldiers). The city treasury also gets any obols players spend on hiring guards and purchasing equipment (with the exception of Odemia). Odemia is special; house Atussa has no dominant influence in any one city, but they do own a family blacksmith in Odemia. Thus, to compensate they get the cash from any purchases of equipment at the Odemia blacksmith as well as half of the revenue for hiring guards (they have to be equipped somehow). Hiring soldiers does not send cash into city/player treasures, it vanishes. (sorry, no free soldiers)

    Each player can use their cut of the city's revenue to further their house's (or their character, depending on their house's policies) standing by hiring guards to protect money-making buildings, buying out NPCs for a vote, and such feats.

    Edit #7, last update: 1:47 AM, and its bedtime - so that's enough for now. What do you guys think about this as the focus for the game?

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    Its all fun and games...until an ugly lock picture ruins everything! Vote to ban lock pictures!

    (This message has been edited by Avatara (edited 08-15-2004).)



  • What is the web address for the Ambrosia IRC site? And the characters on the councils (like Crito, Philinus, etc.) will they be filled by member's characters?

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    Selax



  • To use IRC, Talos posted a guide here that might be useful:
    (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/webboard/Forum5/HTML/000929.html")http://www.ambrosias...TML/000929.html(/url)

    Bit too late to join in tonight though.

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    Its all fun and games...until an ugly lock picture ruins everything! Vote to ban lock pictures!

    (This message has been edited by Avatara (edited 08-15-2004).)



  • And yes, I know that idea is a major revamp and would be very complicated, but Pallas has already agreed to help with a significant portion of coding a website to keep track of and display all the necessary numbers.

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    Its all fun and games...until an ugly lock picture ruins everything! Vote to ban lock pictures!


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